Pros & Cons of borosilicate versus soft glass

[retroActive]

I'm just starting out, & trying to decide whether borosilicate or soft glass is the way to go. I'd love people to discuss the advantages & disadvantages of each; not so much in terms of cost of glass & gas, but more in terms of colour & design possibilities & limitations (or not) in the kinds of glass objects & designs & techniques you can make or use.

There is a local borosilicate shop (the owner has years of experience & is very talented, but doesn't make beads himself) & he can give lessons to 1 or 2 people (only has set-up for 2 students at a time) -- there is not a studio where I can take soft glass lessons on a regular basis here, but a 1 or 2 day workshop may happen in the summer. I made some beads at the boro shop last Tuesday & had a great time. But most of my books are written by people working in soft glass. Are the techniques & designs transferable?

There are two local flameworkers who make glass beads. They both use soft glass. I love the beautiful colours & designs they get, and haven't seen anything like that in hard glass here. Are those beautiful designs & colours achievable in hard glass, too?

[Beadanna]

My experience of boro is virtually nil.
I love soft glass but haven't made a bead with boro.
My only regret is that I have bought heaps of 104 and now I'm getting an urge to use Bull Eye which is 90coe.
I know that you have the possibility to make sculptural items easily with boro. You can work on something, put it down, and pick it up again without cracking worries.
I like the look of boro beads but not enough to change. I'm thinking that the variety possible with soft glass is greater than with boro, but I may be wrong there.

Oh and Welcome retroActive

[menty666]

You might guess what side I fall on, but here's my take on the pros and cons.

Boro pros:
* Far less prone to thermal shocking (IMO that makes it a better beginner glass)
* Easier to work hollow
* Easier to work larger
* You can come back to finish a piece later easier
* Fairly good cross manufacturer compatability
Cons:
* Less working time
* Tends to not to do the gentle blending between colors as well (http://www.lampworktreasures.com/home.html)

Soft glass Pros:
* Lower cost of entry. Boro requires a propane/oxy mix while soft can be worked in just MAPP, meaning no regulators, oxy tanks, smaller/cheaper torches
* Sometimes cheaper for the glass itself (though this is changing somewhat)
* Greater working time allowing for interesting gravity effects
* Longer working time allows for easier sculpting
* Fairly vibrant palette to choose from

Soft glass cons:
* Greater working time (sometimes it takes longer for something to set up...a problem if you need it in the kiln NOW)
* Greater incidence of cross manufacturer incompatibility
* More prone to thermal shock. This makes repairs difficult, it's harder to go back and make changes to an area after the fact
* Harder to work larger hollow work.

All of the above is for lampworking, keep in mind the furnace guys are technically using "soft glass".

I work mostly boro, but I do keep some 104 and 90 around.

OH...and you can get quite a bit of color variation in boro between coating, fuming with metals, mixing in the flame, striking, etc.

[menty666]

In case you're wondering, with a little planning you can so some lovely sculptural work with soft glass too. I'm not even sure if the chess pieces in this video are possible with boro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9Otv4urtds

[pamdugger]

Having at least some experience with both, here is what I think: a lot will depend on what you want to do. If you want to do beads, then I think soft glass is the best since you have lots of color range, plus the glass flows better and rounds out much faster. Everything you do on a bead is harder to do with boro; raking, feathering, patterns, etc. However, to the con is the temperature control, working cool enough so that colors don't smear, but hot enough to keep the glass from shocking. It's always funny to me, but people who start out working boro seem to think soft glass is harder, while people who start out with soft glass feel boro is harder.

Personally for me, I don't like the feel of the boro glass, takes a lot more heat to make it flow. Most of all, I love the soft glass colors, vibrant and beautiful.

If you want to do large sculpture or goblets then I think boro is great. For beads I don't think you can beat soft glass. Of course, again, that is only my opinion.

[Beckah]

Boro needs lots of firepower. I keep upping my torches, oxycon, etc. but I still don't have a set-up that works boro easily. But the boro clear is crystaline. So if marbles or implosions set your heart aflame, then boro is a great choice. I think boro leads itself to Art Deco or very modern type pieces.

However, I rarely use boro for beads. I always turn to my soft glass for beads. If I want earthy, I use the 104. If I want soft pastel, I use Bullseye. Plus if I want to use presses, soft glass is so much easier for a pressed bead. Soft glass has a look that works very well with jewelry pieces. It can be an outrageously lovely, detailed focal or it can be pieces of a set to make necklaces, bracelets, etc.

[retroActive]

Thanks, everyone! I see at least one of my assumptions was wrong: I expected boro to have a LONGER working time because of the greater heat... anyhow, I'm wrong about that. Although I am sure there are divergent opinions, it seems that, as Pam stated, that for beads, the vibrant colours of soft glass and its ability to flow and be worked longer make it ideal. Whereas for goblets, hollow pieces & larger hollow work, boro is better. So far, I've only done boro twice (last week, making beads on a mandrel, time before, working without mandrel for a pendant shape) - total of 3 hours. I loved working the glass, but was a little disappointed that the colours were muddy rather than vibrant. Of course, that could very well be my inexperience and perhaps not working the glass to get out the best effects!!!

This is a beginner talking, but right now, I can't decide: I want to learn EVERYTHING! I am in love with the beads I see, but the idea of making small goblets or small vessels or candlesticks also intrigues me greatly. It seems that most people above work one or the other, and you only dabble in the 'other' glass. Well, since the classes available to me right now is boro, maybe I will concentrate on its strengths and leave the beads until I can take a summer workshop when it is offered.

Tom, I am about to check out your work, since you do boro. And yes, I guessed your bias with your tag 'borovangelist'

Anna, thanks for the welcome!

[menty666]

If you can work one, you can generally work the other but unless you do it often it's like trying to write with your other hand.

I don't have a gallery on my site (it's part of a very looooong to-do list) but there's stuff in my artfire shop and a few albums on my facebook page.

Muddy boro color can sometimes be helped (while working) with more oxygen.

Good luck and have fun

[RobertS]

I work with both, but for different applications. As a rule I use soft glass for beads for the reasons stated above - less heat required and a great color palette. I use boro for sculptural work mainly because of the thermal shock resistance. Much of my sculpture is done in clear at the moment, so color control isn't really an issue for me at the moment. I understand wanting to do everything at once, but it's a good idea to get your chops up with one before you dive headlong into the other.

Robert

[lampworker1]

I love them both!! Boro colors are ethereal giving your work an added visual dimension that you cannot get with soft glass. But I also work with soft glass. I think it takes your own experience and why limit yourself since it sounds like your are in love with glass. Have fun.

[CNDesigns]

Well I love them both. Each one has qualties that make it special.
I use a minor and a 15l Oxycon. I can make beads and small pendants with this set up in boro. I tried a 5l oxycon and the machine just died on bead 2.

After a class in boro with a national artist, she showed us how to understand each glass type, how to strike it to get amazing colors.

I spent the next month working with boro. When I went back to soft glass I was over melting the glass.

But now I have both done. I really recommend taking classes. I have added so many new skills doing these items. This past fall I went to a class in the mountains and learned murrini making, electroforming, silver coring and viking knit, It was so cool